[Az-Geocaching] FW: Arizona Game and Fish wants to hear from ou

Mon Nov 20 18:23:17 MST 2006

I definitely agree with Scott and Brian here.
There are most certainly boneheads in all classes of OHV drivers, but I 
have to think the guy spending $10-20-30K+ on his decked out 4WD 
(interesting, the 4 and $ use the same key) will probably be a bit more 
considerate than the guy who only spent $500 on a whim.
As far as the Copper Sticker goes, I will more than gladly pony up my 
$20 if it can provide better patrolling to remove the jerques from the area.

Brian Casteel wrote:
> I tend to agree.  I'm a member of one of the 4x4 clubs in town, and we all
> follow a tread lightly philosophy.  Environmental groups looking for a + in
> the 'designated wilderness' use ATV tracks as their prime examples, but lump
> motorcycles, snowmobiles and full-size 4x4s into the category of destructive
> users.  We've even found that some of the propaganda pictures aren't even of
> the area they're trying to get shut down.  That said, there isn't a single
> category of absolute innocents, but in my experience it is primarily ATV
> riders that tear up the terrain and create most of the spider trails.  One
> of the most beautiful areas I've ever had the opportunity to wheel into was
> the Independence Mine area south of Big Timber, MT.  But on the drive to the
> wilderness area boundary, we passed through an area where I counted no less
> than FIFTEEN spider trails the width of a quad in the same general area.
> These trails were paralleling the main trail through the landscape.  We
> watched (and filmed) a group of guys blow past us and tear across the
> terrain with absolute disregard.  Despite ripping them a new hole, they
> still did it, apparently invincible because they were all wearing revolvers
> on their hips (our vehicles and persons were equipped enough to fight as a
> small army, but that's beside the point).
>
> Most often times, it isn't the riders on the true trail ATVs, but the
> Predator style rides driven by hotshots with something to prove to the
> masculinity of the world.  Take Bulldog Canyon for example, which has its
> fair share of...incidents.  One day I was going for a few caches, and a
> couple people were in a gully shooting illegally.  I called a Ranger and
> they showed up to ruin this guy's day by taking his guns and handing a
> substantial ticket to the tune of I believe $5000.  While talking to the
> officer afterwards, we talked about wheelin' in the canyon area, and he was
> telling me about how 5 or 6 times during every summer, they land a
> helicopter to haul some moron off to get fixed, because they went head-on
> into a full size vehicle on a blind turn.  How did this happen, you ask?
> The full-size vehicles have always been doing <15mph to the 40+mph the ATV
> is doing.  They hotrod around corners and can't hear the other vehicle
> coming because of the high-RPM engine noise.  The unintended result is that
> the full-size driver has an unwanted passenger via the front windshield.
>
> When our club goes on rides, at no time are we doing >10mph unless it's a
> flat road and we are in 2WD.  The rest of the time it's 4HI or 4LO and we're
> literally crawling along at only around 3-5mph.  The argument is that the
> full-size vehicles have so much more power and can therefore be more
> destructive.  This is true in one way, but not in practical applications
> (most of the time).  My vehicle has more power than the average ATV.  It has
> more power to crawl over obstacles at lower speeds, requiring minimal wheel
> spin to do so.  You take an ATV that doesn't have the luxury of 2500lbs of
> additional weight, and it takes significant wheel spin to overcome that same
> obstacle, or they'll simply go around on a spider trail.  It also seems that
> either the ATVs I see causing this destruction either don't have 4WD or the
> rider chooses to not use it "because they can".  Some of the spider trails
> I've seen were created in areas where the original 2-track was a little
> bumpy.  If it's an ATV people, why the he|| are you looking for the mall
> crawler way around?
>
> While unfair in some ways to the motorcycle/ATV enthusiasts, overall they
> need to better police themselves and not just shake heads when some moron
> tears across the land on a trail that's being created as they ride.  We
> wheel by example, but there just seems to be too many who choose to ignore
> that example, and few of them are on anything but ATVs.
>
> Some of it is just lack of education on the proper way to recreate on public
> lands, while some of it is simple common sense.  Others yet are just defiant
> and don't care until they wind up in a halo.  Even then, it sometimes isn't
> enough.
>
>
> Brian
> Team A.I.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az-geocaching-bounces at listserv.azgeocaching.com
> [mailto:az-geocaching-bounces at listserv.azgeocaching.com] On Behalf Of Roping
> The Wind
> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 10:38 AM
> To: listserv at azgeocaching.com
> Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] FW: Arizona Game and Fish wants to hear from ou
>
>
>
>   
>> From: <AZcachemeister at getnet.com>
>> Reply-To: listserv at azgeocaching.com
>> To: listserv at azgeocaching.com
>> Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] FW: Arizona Game and Fish wants to hear from 
>> ou
>> Date: 20 Nov 2006 09:07:50 -0700
>>
>> Licensed vehicles will not be required to have the sticker according to the
>>     
>
>   
>> discussion @ virtual jeep.
>>     
>
> (disclaimer: this might be a bit controversial.... call it what you want, 
> but this is what I have seen and witnessed, so I can say it 'matter of 
> factly')
>
> That is how I understand it. Only UNREGISTERED vehicles have to have this 
> permit. That would be ATC's and ATV's and Motorcycles that are generally 
> trailered to their starting points (and of course rockcrawlers and jeeps 
> that are not driven on the roadways). I knew something like this would 
> eventually happen. The website says something like 'due to the recent heavy 
> growth of off road activities". In my opinion, that huge growth of off road 
> driving is all ATV's and cycles. In my opinion, they are the ones that do 
> the most damage to the environment. Of course, there are good people and bad
>
> apples in every group.... but in general, from what I have seen over the 
> past 15 years that I have really been paying attention to this stuff... 
> jeeps (and similar vehicles) tend to 'tread lightly'. They usually can be 
> seen just crawling along. Not kicking up a lot of dust (which is another 
> huge issue with the local government agencies) and not tearing up the 
> desert. The ATVs/quads and cycles are usually the ones racing across the 
> desert, kicking up tons of dust and creating new trails. The area of desert 
> SE of Apache Junction is a PRIME example. That whole area (south of US 
> 60/West of State Route 79) and east of the CAP canal) has a good number of 
> trails out there. They  used to be all 2 track 'jeep' type trails. Lots of 
> pinstriping along the way! Over the past few years, those 2 track trails 
> have become very wide and sandy. The amount of vegetation along these 
> roads/trails have become very sparse. Why have these trails become so much 
> wider? Why cant the riders stay on the original two tire tracks that used to
>
> be the trail? Then after heavy rains, the 'mudders' have to come along and 
> tear the trails up farther by creating huge ruts (this is the reason the 
> forest service closes its roads in the winter). Then, the ATV's and Quads 
> come back in and have to ride around the mud hole full of ruts and thus 
> create a new trail... thinning the vegetation and eventually widening the 
> trail (this is called 'no respect for the land'). This is what is happening 
> and in my opinion is very damaging to the environment. I dont like it one 
> bit and I think the state needs to put a MUCH tighter rein on these ATV's 
> and motorcycles. I know there might be a few on here that rides cycles and 
> quads and I know there are some of them that are very respectful of the 
> land, but in general... these types of vehicles are doing the most damage...
>
> due to their popularity. Just my opinion. But I think alot of the Jeep guys 
> will agree with me on this. I have witnessed this first hand as I spend alot
>
> of time over this area of desert. and.. no... I dont own a Jeep and I am not
>
> a hardcore 4 wheeler. So my opinions are not biased. It's just that I have 
> personally never seen a jeep racing across this area of desert, spewing a 
> ton of dust in the air and tearing up the desert. The most lack of respect 
> for the land, that I have personally seen, is coming from the ATV/quad and 
> cycles sector. Again, I am sure there are alot of very respectful riders out
>
> there... but as I said before, due to the popularity of these vehicles, 
> there are more bad apples in this group now then there was before.
>
> This area of desert has become what is known as an OHV area (off highway 
> vehicle). It is a place that these types of vehicles can be ridden. I think 
> with the popularity of them, the state couldnt really 'put a rein' on them, 
> so they just made the area an OHV area (just like the Rolls near Saguaro 
> Lake). Its a shame, because that desert used to be very green and pristine. 
> What is very disspointing to see is that the quads and cycles are now 
> starting to migrate north of the highway and outside the designated OHV 
> area.
>
> Scott
> Team RTW
>
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