[Az-Geocaching] Who Manages What

[Brian Casteel]

Ok.

First of all, the Park Rangers are Arizona POST (Peace Officers Standards
and Training) certified officers, which means they can enforce LAW, so I
don't see what biology/ecology have to do with anything, but 2 random
sciences you pulled out of a dictionary.  True, you don't have to say
anything to the cop, but failure to do so increases suspicion of a crime
being committed.  They *can* arrest you for suspicion if they have a strong
enough belief that you may have done something.  For example.  Jose Uriba
Barajas-Salazar has several warrants out of multiple jurisdictions for
multiple crimes.  An officer stops Jose Salazar Uriba for a traffic
violation.  Both people have different DOBs and slightly different
physicals.  However, there are parts of the story which don't mesh, so he's
taken into custody until it can be determined by a fingerprint check whether
or not he's who he is claiming NOT to be.  Is this illegal?  An appeals
court has said no.  I don't know where you got the idea that most officers
will not arrest without a supervisor present, because that's rarely EVER the
case.  10/10 of my officers don't ask for a Sgt to go 10-15, because there's
no reason to do so.  Heck, even if they get into a fight, a Sgt isn't going
to respond just so the bad guy can be arrested.  He'll probably still show
up to assist in the subduing of the bad guy, but hardly for an arrest.  The
only time(s) a supervisor responds is at the request of the officer due to a
beligerent violator, or someone who isn't being let out of their situation
by the clout they believe they carry.

An officer that 'threatens' to arrest isn't necessarily an idiot.  The
gentleman in yesterday's incident is an exception to this.  If an officer
isn't going to make an arrest, stating that this could have been the outcome
may change how someone perceives what they were doing, so it isn't entirely
wasted effort.  Harassing Scott/Regan yesterday was just jerkish though.

Hmm, the government concern over dirty freeways.  Where ever shall I start?
Oh yeah.  Budgets.  ADOT (Arizona Department of Transportation) is
responsible for cleaning up the freeways with their sweepers, which have
HUNDREDS of miles of freeway to clean up, and there is a limited amount of
money to go around.  Adopt-A-Highway can't do some of it, for the simple
fact of liability and policy.  Those folks volunteering their time aren't
allowed to pick up trash within 10' of the roadway.  In all reality, the
state shouldn't have to do anything about the trash on the highways.  Those
that toss cigarette butts out the window, or their McDonald's bags, or even
their empty Budweiser containers should.  Unfortunately there aren't enough
officers available to catch everyone, and the issue of stupid drivers who
continue to cause wrecks behind wrecks also keep the officers from writing
traffic citations and being pro-active in their jobs.

You sure have a negative attitude about law enforcement.  Everything you
said was tainted with anger/hatred toward anyone with a badge.  What you
have clearly forgotten is where we would be as a society without law
enforcement officials around, who work in one of the most thankless jobs out
there.  Just remember.  When you are stopped by an officer for a violation,
you will likely receive the same respect you dish out, which for you
probably isn't going to be one to chock up for great memories in life.

Oh, and that 'barely graduating from high school' bit made me laugh.
Clearly they've kept their nose clean enough to be accepted as a police
officer, who must pass rigorous standards in order to be deserving of the
badge.  Nobody needs a law degree to enforce a specific set of laws which
they are familiarized with through the equally rigorous academy and
follow-up training before being released solo on the roads.

Brian
Team A.I.




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "William Noll" <wnoll@cybertrails.com>
To: <listserv@azgeocaching.com>
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 4:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] Who Manages What


>     I wonder at what time in our history Park Rangers stopped having
degrees
> in Biology and Ecology, and instead became Law Enforcement?
>
>     After reading all this, I can offer one suggestion... Keep your mouth
> shut. Cops can question you for anything, but they have to have
'reasonable
> suspicion / probable cause' to do anything to you. Think Miranda... the
cop
> is NOT your friend, and he will take notes of your conversation, and those
> conversations CAN BE used against you. You don't have to say anything to
the
> cop. You merely have to follow 'reasonable lawful orders' from him, like
> providing ID and an insurance card if a vehicle is involved. He can't
arrest
> you unless he has probable cause, and most officers will not arrest
without
> a supervisor present (to sort out the issues) unless there is an immediate
> threat to his safety.
>
>     Also, any cop that 'threatens' arrest is an idiot. No smart one will
> give away the 'element of surprise' in an escalating situation. I would
> report him. His supervisors probably won't do anything (they DO protect
each
> other), but at least it can augment a personnel file if this guy is a
> problem.
>
>     You should not feel like a criminal using the PUBLIC lands, by hiding
a
> geocache. If government was so concerned about littering, they'd clean up
> the freeways. If you are approached by law enforcement, unless you just
> geocached a murder victim, you have nothing to hide / fear, but you don't
> have to apologize for the sport to someone who probably barely graduated
> from high school.  You can query the officer regarding why he is stopping
/
> talking to you. If anything HE says sounds fishy, then remember the shrewd
> legal mind of our former president - "Deny, deny, deny". Remember that
most
> cops only have a cheesy associates degree in 'Criminal Justice', and that
> very few people with a J.D. (that's a law degree) go on to become cops.
> Treat him as such. Remember, it's all about 'power'. Empower yourself by
> making him do the hard work of explaining his actions to you, and if
> necessary, act stupid. He will.
>
> Bill
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <bcasteel@cox.net>
> To: <listserv@azgeocaching.com>
> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 9:46 PM
> Subject: Re: RE: [Az-Geocaching] Who Manages What
>
>
> > To clarify one point, he could arrest you for trespassing, but not for
> Geocaching.  Geocaching itself, is not illegal, but knowingly violating
> certain laws to find a cache is.  It is also somewhat illegal to do it
> unknowingly, but the case must be made by the officer and prosecutor that
> you ignored the invisible signs and phantom fencing to access the area in
> order to find the cache before you could be convicted on it.  There's a
big
> reason for the word 'knowingly' being used in description of crimes.
> >
> > Brian
> > Team A.I
>
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